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Last week it was a hovering server that irritated a reader. This week, it’s another service issue.
Kay Avery writes that she and her husband enjoy going out to a nice restaurant each weekend where they like to order a good bottle of wine. That said, she is put off by wine-pushing servers.
“When we are trying to (decide) what wine to order, the waiter butts in several times wanting to make suggestions.
“The conversation usually starts with him asking if we need help. We say, no, thank you. We are just starting to look at the wine list, and he comes over and tells us they tasted four wines the other night and could he make a suggestion. We say, no, thanks, we have narrowed it down. Again, as my husband and I have narrowed it down to three he hears us talking about. (The server) butts in again to tell us what wine he thought was best at the tasting.
“At that point, we almost feel like leaving but we say, no, we know wines, and we will let him know. My husband and I are a good 30 years older than the waiter, have been to wine tastings and the wine country several times. We are by no means wine snobs. When we go to Peruvian restaurants or anywhere we don’t know the wines, we ask for help. But I am really tired of these young waiters thinking they have the better opinion of what wine we should drink. Managers of restaurants really need to tell the wait staff to ask if customers need help once. If (the customers) say no, leave them alone. They are capable of making a decision.”
Rainbow Lodge: Nick de la Torre : 29-95
READER RAVES
Sam Armistead: Captain Tom’s Boat, 9651 FM 1960 in Humble, 281-890-8334
“Save your money and eat the best fried seafood in Houston. I have only gone to the one on 1960 just west of Perry. It is always crowded. (It has) no tables. Customers sit on stools and watch the employees shuck fresh oysters. Two catfish split and fried are $9.95 with fries. It can’t be beat. Two stuffed crabs for the same price. Better than any crab cake I’ve tried. Not a place for kids, but a really a fun and interesting place.”
Geri Sweeney: Rainbow Lodge, 2011 Ella, 713-861-8666
“We celebrated my sister’s birthday at Rainbow Lodge last night. We were pleased with everything from the complimentary valet parking to our pleasant surprise at half-price wine by the glass on Sunday nights. The wine was reasonably priced at full price, so it truly was a savings. Our food was delicious and creatively prepared, as in sea bass with lobster ravioli in a fantastic citrus sauce containing chorizo of all things! My brother-in-law’s steak was undercooked; they apologized for this and quickly brought him a new steak cooked to the appropriate temperature. My sister received a complimentary dessert, which we all shared. The service was impeccable. Excellent job, Rainbow Lodge!”
Jean Wong Wilson: Hawthorn, 3200 Kirby, 713-523-3600
“My new favorite restaurant is Hawthorn. The service and food is first-class plus some. Everything on the menu is very fresh, and many items, such as the squid ink pasta, are handmade. Hawthorn has the best crab cake I’ve experienced since I first discovered crab cakes in Seattle; theirs is perfection.”
First rule of customer service, keep them happy. Second rule, see first rule.
I would have left. Pushy waiter would have lost a customer, if he proves to me he has a comprehension problem I don't want him taking my order.
The whole point of servers pushing the "We have sampled four excellent wines this week that we think you may enjoy, may I make a recommendation?" line is because they are trying to sell you their most marked-up bottles.
It's on the same principle as the "chef's choice" dishes. When there's food inventory about to spoil or need throwing out they concoct a dish, sell it at a "reasonable" price to avoid wasting food (and saving money)...
You would have the valid point about the wine, in this instance, if it weren't for the fact that most wines are priced on the menu, so the customer could see what the price was. Also, servers have no clue how much anything is marked up, or the profit margin. That isnt something that is shared throughout the house. The specials you are thinking of, typically are on Sunday and Monday, after the weekend rush. That in no way is reflective of the specials every night at every restaurant.
Just because the prices are listed on the menu, doesnt mean the waiter wont suggest the most expensive wines to the customer. Because waiter's make a tip based on the total amount of the bill, they always try to upsell diners on items, especially on the wine as its ridiculously marked up.
ChemE- Its 2012, not 1975, not 1985, 2012 get with the times. Most good restaurants that want to make a recommendation are not just looking to fleece the guest and grease their pockets. With many outstanding boutique lists these days, the server or sommelier may actually have tried some good wine they would like the guest to drink and enjoy. Most guests simply have not been exposed to the wide variety of good juice out there these days and the staff is actually trying to do them a service and turn the customer onto something they would actually enjoy. Also the 'chef's choice' dishes in most of our good restaurants in this town are not spoiled left overs, again this is 2012. This is where the chef shines and puts out his best food and idea's. Unless your eating in some old school diner or less then stellar restaurant, both your comments are completely outdated. Sorry, but your just plain wrong. You certainly must not get out much.
It doesn't matter what year it is, servers are still tipped on the total bill and their performance is measured by their overall sales. Which means the higher they get the check, the bigger their tip and more they are valued by the establishment managers and owners.
Yes there are some good "finds" that many might not be aware of, and there are many wines on lists these days that are obscure and the market value is only known by a limited few. Don't kid yourself, servers will push whatever wine they are told to and definitely try to raise the total tab. Many restaurants and retailers (Spec's for one) pay "commission" on certain bottles of wine, and it's based on the margin NOT the quality or "value for money." If you don't know wines, stay with the mainstream labels where you know the market value, otherwise you could be paying $50 for a $10 (retail) bottle of wine.
It's pretty simply. Ask to see the manager and then tell him/her that you want a different server.
Except that the servers do this at the behest of the management, so tell the management you don't return to restaurants whose policy is to be pushy about wine choices. It's actually not the servers' fault: Their bosses are on their cases to do this.
We too have an extensive knowledge of wine, but it does not disturb us when a waiter asks if we need any help. I like listening to the descriptions of the wine they do know about and maybe I will change my mind if it is something I have not tried and fits the price and style I am looking for. I realize it might be the one they are pushing, but it also might be the one that is a good find and is drinking quite well at the moment. All restaurants should train their staff on the wines and the food they might pair well with. I find it frustrating when they don't know more about some particular wines. With so many more years of experience, it is an opportunity to share your knowledge with the younger, less knowledge waiter. My husband and I don't find it a burden to not only share our knowledge but to also hear what the staff is learning. We all started acquiring our wine knowledge from someone else at some point and the fact they are so interested should be applauded not criticized.
Great Response!!! While Kay and her husband may not consider themselves wine snobs, her comment about being 30 years older than the waiter and thus she "clearly" knows more makes her a snob none the less. It is possible for someone younger than you to have more knowledge than you about something.
"I find it frustrating when they don't know more about some particular wines." I assume "they" means server's? To be fair the whole job market is full of people who don't know their job. Waiters who could care less about your experience are about 5 to 1 to those who do. Just saying.
It is one thing when the waiter offers to make a suggestion and takes "No, thank you" for an answer.
It is an entirely different thing when the waiter refuses to take "No" for an answer.
The first is good service. The second is lousy service.
It doesn't matter if the waiter thinks that he knows more about the wines than the customer. It doesn't matter if the waiter actually does know more about wine than the customer. What does matter is that this is the customer's meal, not the waiter's. If the customer has said that they do not want help, then the waiter should abide by that decision (no matter how stupid the waiter thinks that it is).
Many waiters are incented by wine suppliers to sell thier wine in excange for trips, gift cards, etc. This is a very common practice. Management does not mind either as it increases thier sales and allows a perk for their employees at no expense to them. It's a jungle out there, buyer beware!
You mean "incentivized"?
One time I was at Grappino's and when the waiter poured my wine order, I thought he was pouring a tidbit so that I could taste it. I realized that the "shot" he poured me was the entire portion. When I asked how much it was, he said $9.00. I thought I had been totally ripped off. To their credit, the food was good, and so was the service. I believe as an appetizer we had some hot roasted almonds in olive oil so I guess I'm not totally upset. I was told later by a world famous (at least in Houston) food critic that some restaurants have a more generous pour than others. OK Grappino's, I forgive you. Oh, and their pizza was superb.
Kay Avery you are just a snob..I've been here, and I know this, blah,blah and I couldn't be bothered by your lowly self and your opinion... be gone. Double edged sword....waiters income and customers. Can't have one without the other!
I disagree with the Kay A and agree with MCBAP and EZE. The customer should be open to hear about a few new wines with there descriptions. Never pass up an opportunity to learn something new.
Agreed - what a couple of creeps. Glad I wasn't their waiter.
Didn't know there was a wine country. Wow, here I was taught that many countries from every continent, bar Antarctica are engaged in the growing of a wide variety of grapes (and other fruits), into the production and bottling of wine. Even in each country, there are numerous, prosperous and exciting wines from a variety of regions, and sub-regions within those regions in a variety of styles, utilizing a variety of old and new world techniques in their production and development.
Heavy on the "Amateur" (correct spelling) in the name "Wineamatuer". When one refers to the "wine country" it's merely noting an area where grapes are grown and wine is made, it's not a country as is "United States of America", "Italy", and etc. The "sub-regions" as you referred to them, are called AVA's. Hope you graduate from your "Amateur" status before you criticize again, then maybe you won't get a taste of your own medicine. Just saying...
I think the point Kay is trying to make is that the server shouldn't have to be told three times that the she and her companion are not interested in his opinion. When the server offers to give his opinion of the four wines he tasted earlier in the week, he has fulfilled any possible obligation to the management for making certain wine suggestions and should allow the customers to determine the next step (either placing an order, or asking for help). Kay's desire to be treated with respect (i.e. leaving her alone when she has clearly declined the offer of help) in no way makes her a snob.
Let the waiter make his suggestions. Geeze. What a couple of nasty people. Being nice doesn't take that much time and the waiter probably could have used some "NICE" that day. Creeps!
Just how many times must you hear the word "No", in order for it to sink in?? Sorry, if you think I'm a "CREEP" because I don't want to hear your suggestions, after I have already told you so, nicely. It is not unkind, when I am paying my hard-earned money, possibly to you, to answer your question politely and firmly. It doesn't make me "nasty" if I refuse an offer. And I am not hindering you doing your job by stopping you from interrupting my dining experience with a polite "no thank you, I am narrowing my choices". And for those of you who think ill of the patron who knows what he/she wants right off, even if it wanting to peruse the wine list, please remember that it is the patron who is spending the money, and the patron who decides what they want or don't want. Hopefully, the patron recognizes the value of hard, honest work, and treats others with polite respect. But, truly, it is impolite and disrespectful to refuse to hear and respect the word "No".
I love all the conspiracy minded people on here. No matter how much you know about wines, they may have something new and great! I always tell the waiters to bring me a sample of what they are pushing, you never know!
What I hate is when a waiter tells me a I can't drink red wine with seafood or my wife can't drink Risieling with her Prime Rib. It's personal preference.
If you're worried about a waiter up selling you, then you're a broke a.. any way..
It may have been proper for the waiter to have asked if the customers needed assistance in selecting their wine. But once they told him that they did not, that should have ended his intrusion.
Since he persisted, the annoyance of the patrons was justified. They could have left, but chose not to do so. They could have complained to management, but did not. Management probably coached the waiter to push certain wines.
The continued intrusion by the waiter, had I been the patron, would have resulted in an effect on the tip I would have left. And I would have notified the waiter the reason for any tip left, as well as notifing management of my displeasure at the intrusive behavior of the wait staff.
Of course I also have the right to give my patronage to another competing establishment.
While I might agree that the OP is being pretentious and presumptuous, I also agree that, once the patron has made his/her wishes clear - "No, we are fine, thank you", then any further attempts by the waiter are indeed pushy and unwelcome. As someone who spent 11 years as a bartender, I can tell you that there is a fine fine line between solicitous and annoying, and some of the younger, entitled, 'me' generation of servers haven't learned that yet.
What I got from the comment made by Kay was not so much that the waiter was annoying, but they know more then he knows because they are 30 years older and have been to the wine country. And especially the part where they are tired of hearing the waiters opinion. Sounds more closed minded to outside suggestions because they know more than anyone versus being open to helpful suggestions. The last paragraph spoke more to me about their real attitude vs the first couple when they did not like the interruption. Maybe she did not mean to sound snobby, but the last comments are...when they know better than the "young" waiters. I guess lucky them!
1. Kay Avery is a jerk in her personal life in the one area of wine ordering. (I feel certain she is perfect in every other way.) Certainly, she would be wise to listen to the opinions of other adults on the subject of wine. Do Bear Dalton and Alison Cook (and Syd Kearney) listen to what waiters have to say about the wines on offer? You bet. But, did she act improperly at the restaurant? No.
2. The waiter was a jerk in his professional life in the one area of wine ordering. (I feel certain he is perfect in every other way.)
Certainly, he would be wise to listen to the opinions of the "Whine & Dine" crowd who have shared their best wishes for his future conduct as he grows in understanding his occupation. Do top waiters understand that sometimes customers are wrong, but they are always right? Did he act improperly at the restaurant? Yes; it is his job to be in control of his feelings when performing his occupation.
Geez, this is a harsh crowd. I agree with Anony Mouse as quoted below (and other posters who shared similar opinions.) Doesn't matter if Kay and her husband are wild beasts who snarl at anyone making suggestions - they made it clear they didn't want assistance, so leave them alone. I don't understand the hostility directed at the letter writer.
"It is one thing when the waiter offers to make a suggestion and takes "No, thank you" for an answer.
It is an entirely different thing when the waiter refuses to take "No" for an answer.
The first is good service. The second is lousy service."
All you fools debating Kay's comment sound silly. Who cares! What do yall do sit around and troll for comments and arguemts? She had an opinion and wrote about it in. End of story. I'm soooooo tired of the food comments now blowing up and and line by line analyzed and attacked.
So much arguing and name calling I think I'll take a nap from you losers!!!!!
PS feel free to rip my comment up. Could care less! How about my poorly constructed sentences, or my bad attitude that clearly just oozes out based on a comment? Fun!!!!!
I agree that the waiter should have accepted the OP's declining assistance the first time. That said, if Kay's sole objective was to enjoy a meal, her best option would have been to ask to speak to the manager, request (nicely) another server, and get on with her meal.
Instead, she chose to turn the exchange into a power play by which she could establish her superiority. My guess is that the power play continues for her in this forum, which she is no doubt reading and seeking positive reinforcement for her "outrage."
What is so frequently forgotten - and what seems to have been lost here by all involved - is the awareness that both patrons and servers are deserving of simple respect.
What is so frequently forgotten - and what seems to have been lost here by all involved - is the awareness that both patrons and servers are deserving of simple respect.
And Kay and her husband respectfully declined his offer twice before becomming annoyed. How many times do they have to decline? Or are you implying that they MUST listen to his suggestions and in only doing so they are showing respect?
Having been told twice that they did not need help, only reinforced the idea that the waiter did not think the couple were capable of making an informed decision and he was the only capable one, or else he was acting a like a little kid who learned something new at school and couldn't wait to get home and share with his mommy.
And I do like the fact that Kay chose to not point fingers at specific restaurants. She kept the offending establishment annonomous which I believe speaks well for her.
Walt,
Absolutely, but you are making it sound as if its a shady practice and a conspiracy...when it isnt if the prices are listed...you can make those decisions for yourself and see what he is doing or suggesting. everyone isnt out to get you. at some point, the decisions for what you purchse are your fault, and not the waiter who is doing his job by upselling and not only making more money for himself (in theory) but also the restaurant.
Do you expect salesmen to accept the bottom line of what you could spend? Do not car salesmen try to get you to add packages or additionals? Its the same principle, why get you to spend base, when a sales person makes more money the more you buy. Lay off the servers for jsut doing their job.
You are absolutely right, AggieMike. Waiters are as shady as used car salesmen. Point taken.
I understand what you are saying AGGIEMIKE, but just because someone has the oppurtunity to upsell a diner, doesnt mean they should always persue it, especially if they have already been rebuffed. I think you are giving the waiters too much power in how they should handle customers. And I do not believe its the waiters job to harrass the diners about what wines to purchase, as this case has shown.
"Good wine is not always expensive and expensive wine is not always good." Yes servers try to up-sell and most of them have no idea of the quality of the wine, they just assume more expensive wine is better wine AND they increase the size of their tip. HOWEVER the tip on the wine SHOULD NOT be dictated by the price of the bottle. Tipping on wine SHOULD be based on the wine service. So a server should be more concerned about accommodating the customers request and trying to push an expensive bottle of mediocre wine. After all, does it take more effort and time on the server's part to open and pour a $100 bottle of wine than it does a $40 bottle of wine. Support a $10 flat gratuity for a bottle of wine in moderate restaurants, and $20 flat gratuity in upscale restaurants or those with a sommelier or wine steward.
"whine" is right!...really now???, being "annoyed" by another human being who is overly helpful in the service industry and giving you too much attention?? That's the "problem"? (If you know what you want and need no help, order like someone who truly knows wine and make a decision before the server ages 30 years and qualifies for AARP too.) Did anyone ever consider that this "pushy waiter" was just an enthusiastic guy who is excited by learning about wine in his class that he took and wanted to share his enthusiasm? Yes, he was told "no" several times, and you say that you were capable of ordering without any help....but by reading how longggggggggggggg it took you to reach a decision "narrowed down to three",it sure didn't sound like it...
And, in the end, we must always be reminded, "The customer is always right". Or, at least they're right if you want them back for more business. It's their money to spend and they will choose to spend it elsewhere next time.
If I tell a waiter "No thank you" then I expect the waiter to instantly back off. It doesn't matter if I am a wine snob or just someone who knows what they want and does not want a big conversation about it. I certainly don't expect to have to explain my choices to the hired help.
The Avery's did not go out to get educated about new wines. They went out to enjoy a meal with a wine that they wanted to select themselves.
Had the waiter really wanted to be helpful he would have offered a free taste of the wines he was pushing, er...'recommending'. Had he done that he would probably have been taken as being genuinely helpful and would have been better received.
The 'waiter' was a rude, pushy jerk who should be fired. Just kidding. But, he probably really does need to group and learn some manners.